KFAN Rube Chat

My blame would go toward any fan/lawmaker that bought into any argument that a new stadium would allow the Twins to be more competitive within a "small market." Have these people seen what has happened in Pittsburgh? In Milwaukee? In Seattle? -- All places that built new stadiums only to see significant (multiple) stars leave their rosters.

If someone actually bought into that argument, they didn't do ANY research!

Face it, Dan, the Pohlads and all owners within Major Sports want the fans to treat their respective sports as a game, while they (and the players) operate it as a business. So what if people boycott the new stadium, that would only give them more leverage in their argument that they can't afford better free agents. Fans are powerless.

I couldn't agree more with the Mauer statement. The kid is an amazing singles hitter and an above-average catcher, but he's about as clutch as an umbrella on a windy day when it comes to delivering in a key moment. The same thing happened in the final game of the White Sox series before the All-Star break: runners at 2nd and 3rd, two out, down by 3 runs... and he stood there with the bat on his shoulder for a called third strike.  He needs to realize that the umps are going to call "Strike 3" on anything that's close in that type of situation. He needs to PROTECT THE PLATE! All that being said, he did have a nice game winning hit in the finale of the Oakland series -- but there was little pressure with a man on third and nobody out. All he really had to do was make contact and hit the ball out of the infield.

I have to go off topic 'cause this one's right up Barreiro's alley:

How gutless does coach Tim Brewster look now that he has dismissed the four athletes alleged to be involved in the rape of a young woman at U Village?  Back when three of the players were first arrested his rhetoric was "we're going to help them get through this"...he keeps them on for more than three months until a fourth player, Dominic Jones, is charged.  Now he dismisses them.

Call it what it is, Timmy.  Hennepin County prosecutors dismissed those kids from your team, not you.  You were only ready to assert the "conduct code" after it was abundantly clear that public opinion is going to destroy the program as a result of this apparently tragic incident.  By the way, you dismissing the players is not going to change that.  

On the Twins, I agree generally with Dan, but the Bartlett and Punto mishaps cannot be excused...a strikeout is a lot more excusable, even if it is by the Golden Boy in a clutch spot.  

Going to disagree with you here, Dan, on the whole "boycott the new ballpark if Santana or Hunter" isn't resigned angle.  I admire your general willingness to rip the club for hiding behind the small market excuse, but the statement you made above is a gross oversimplification.  First, if you were going to issue an ultimatum about players we needed to resign, I would have started with Morneau--an everyday player and invaluable slugger the likes of which this team never generates through its farm system.  We don't have him under any long-term deal, yet he's more valuable to the Twins than Hunter and Santana are NOW, let alone 4 or 5 years down the road.

The reason I labeled your argument "oversimplified" is that there are any number of reasons why letting Santana and/or Hunter becomes the smart option from a business sense, as well as for the success of the team.  Santana very well could ask for $20-$30 million per year, and another team may very well be willing to pay it.  I don't care how good he is--if that's what he'll cost, Ryan CANNOT pay that amount to a player factoring in only 1/5 of our games, and who could very easily develop an arm problem and become practically worthless at the blink of an eye.  Look at the majority of starting pitchers signed to huge long-term deals, and you'll see that teams very rarely getting anything close to a return on their investment.

As for Hunter, signing him is more realistic, and probably more necessary, given that we have a wealth of young pitching talent, but very few OF's with the potential to become a Torii Hunter.  Nonetheless, as a CF in his early 30's, his effectiveness on defense is going to continue to decline, and he's unlikely to maintain offensive #'s like the ones he's posting now...assuming he could stay healthy.  Yet, any deal with him is going to require giving him a raise (probably a significant one), and extending that pay until the time when he's around 35 or 37 years old.  Seeing him play in the new ballpark is a sentimental idea, but I can't reccomend it from a GM's standpoint.

Bottom line is this: The Twins have Santana and they have Hunter, and they haven't gotten out of Round 1 of the playoffs on their past 3 tries.  The reason isn't those two guys--it's the complete lack of depth.  We have several promising players, but we are certain to lose some of them--that's just the reality of baseball.  

Well If I'm not mistaken there were 26 other outs made by Twins hitters that didn't result in 1 lousy run... How you blame the entire game on the second to last at bat I don't know... Sounds like someone has an agenda...
Having said that Mauer didn't help the cause, hasn't been clutch. I'm not saying you can't blame him, but in a 1 - 0 loss, when the team fails to score a run, the blame must go up and down the line up... not just one at bat... Probably a little credit to Robertson and the Tiger bullpen as well.
Yes Bartlett does deserve criticism, because in a crucial series, low scoring game, you have to make routine plays... if you want to win.
DAN, calling Mauer out like you have in todays blog, you only show your bias...

They'll resign Santana...

Joe Mauer is to Dan what Halliburton is to liberals.

If I'm not mistaken Mauer's close and late stats are very good, and I think he's batting in the high 300's with runners in scoring position.  Get off his back, Dan.  He took a pitch that was clearly outside for strike 3 in that inning against a guy who is very tough against lefties.

Why blame Joe Mauer when he got one of the whopping 3 hits last night?  Why not blame Morneau for his terrible at bat's last night or Cuddyer for swinging at a pitch that would have ruined his ability to have children if he didn't swing?  Bottmline, the Twin's got three hits last night and placing the blame on one person is foolish.

We'll split this time Dan.  I'm with you on the signings.  Now that the Twins are getting their new playpen, they need to show they can develop and keep star players.  Santana is the guy they need to sign, he is the best pitcher in baseball.  I understand the problems that salary will cause, but if the farm system is as good as promised, they should be able to fill in some spots.  Also if Ryan would quit signing stiff free agents, he'd have more bucks for a star or two.  If they do not retain some of the stars, they will be a bridesmaid and I will be confused why they needed the additional revenue.

I'm not that bothered with Mauer.  He is still young and I think the expectations are higher than what he can produce.  Doesn't mean he can't be ripped, but he is not the type of player that seems to want the limelight.  He doesn't seem to be a leader type.  I do agree that if he didn't catch, he would be an average player with a decent on-base percentage.

Note that I am a big Tiger rube and was thrilled with the 1 - 0 W last night.

Can't disagree with Barreiro.  Pretty much hit it right on.  I'd still really like to know why Bartlett is batting 2nd and more importantly whay isn't Morneau batting 4th?  The best two hitters on this team are batting 5-6.  Ridiculous!  And for Gardenhire to claim the boys battled their tails off and to almost come out and criticize Garza for making "one bad pitch".  Gardy is very rippable.  

I'd like to go along with the ballpark boycott if they lose Santana, but I've been waiting far too long for outdoor baseball.  No boycott here, even though it would be deserved.

Dan's got an agenda against Mauer?  Noooooooooooooo, you think so?  I think he's made it pretty clear from day one that he's pulling for Mauer to fail so he can load up with 'stupid parochial Minnesotans' ammo.  

Closed Circuit to the Twins line up, especially the lefties….
When the Ump is constantly calling the low, outside pitch a strike it’s a good idea to swing at it instead of just staring in disbelief…

The more I think about it, No Name Rube's comment (first one above) might be hard to swallow, but it really is accurate.  I've heard more and more Rubes talking about the new stadium and how the expected revenue from that project is going to lead to Pohlad expanding the budget.  Give me a break.  Budget expand and contract radically, based on the performance of the team, the interest of the fans, and the financial interests of ownership.  Carl Pohlad isn't Mark Cuban or the Maloof Brothers, super fans who just happen to be rich enough to buy a sports franchise.  Pohlad is a businessman, first and foremost, and he'll always operate his team looking to make a profit (or at least break even).  But Twins fans have known this for a long time, so they can't act surprised that his approach would continue.  Stadium supporters wanted a stadium because a) it would be cool; and b) they were afraid of the team leaving.  That's it.  Those are perfectly fine reasons, so long as we admit they're the ACTUAL reasons.

Of course Dan is setting up Mauer to fail, but you could also argue that a $33 million contract raised the bar for his performance.  Still, I don't want to hear how awesome Mark Teixiera is compared to Mauer, and how we would have been better off with him.  Bump, it's a baseball draft...nobody knows how the hell it ends up.  Dewon Brazelton and Gavin Floyd aren't exactly tearing up MLB either, but you're not going after Tampa Bay and Philly for drafting those players 3rd and 4th before Teixiera.  By the way, just to illustrate how screwy the draft is...Jason Miller was taken in Round 4 this year (yes, THAT Jason Miller, with the 83 mph fastball), while Josh Rabe was taken in the 11th Round, followed by Jason Kubel in the 12th Round.

The Mauer at-bat will go down as the deciding at bat of the yr.  He took 6 pitches without swinging...strike 3!!!  Unbelievable.  I was at the game and couldn't have been more ticked.  He needs to know we need a hit there..not a walk!!

Hollywood-
If he would have swung at strike 3 and still struck out would it still have been the deciding at bat of the season??
If he would have swung at strike 3 and and hit a groundball out to 2nd base would it still have been the deciding at bat of the season??
Either way the result is the same.. the second out of the inning, with no one on...

Look you morons. The twins had 4 key players that needed to be signed. Johan, Hunter, Morneau, and Baby Jesus. In any reasonable ranking, Baby Jesus should be your last concern. Hunter has no one to replace him, Morneau is the only HR/RBI option, Santana is the best pitcher in baseball and Mauer can lay down a bunt better than any other number 3 hitter. Who does Ryan lock up first? Mauer. Why? He is highly paid now. He bats third. He should be looking to drive in runs. If we need a walk, we have Punto to just stand there. I think the crap Dan gives Mauer is right on. He is the only one not holding up his responsibility.  

I'm not saying that Mauer is above criticism, there are things I'd like to see him improve.  But I will say that the trashing that's been laid on him by Dan since day 1 has been over the top ridiculous.  Especially when you consider that he's coming off an AL batting title at AGE 23.  He seems to be a hard worker with a good head on his shoulders, so the odds are good that he will continue to mature as a hitter over the next 5 years.

Please stop the Torii Hunter Love Fest!
We get it, he's a fairly candid interview and good for the show but please, have you ever looked at his stats? He's nowhere near the player you and the station portray him to be. Lifetime .269 BA, lower w/ RISP, even lower in close games, even lower BA in late inning close games, consistently in the top 10 for hitting into double plays, middle of the pack fielding percentage for AL outfielders.

Now, if the Twins have such a superb farm system, why don't they have an able replacement for him knowing this contract would be coming up?

I don't think most people think Mauer is above criticism, he hits one of the prettiest double play balls in the league... Its just rediculous to put the blame on him for getting the second out of the ninth inning, with no one on, in a 1 - 0 loss... Was it a terrible a bat?? Yes... but blaming the entire game on that 1 at bat, or as Hollywood has done, blame the entire season on that one at bat??? Its just not a valid argument, its ripping Mauer for the sake of ripping him. If you want to rip him for the at bat thats fine, but you can't blame the game on him in that one at bat...

Again, bottom line is the story of that game was a botched grounder by Bartlett and a botched bunt attempt by Punto...oh, that and an awesome pitching performance by Baker.

Mauer didn't help matters with his at-bat, but if you focus on that while not highlighting the two screw-ups, well, that means you're baseball knowledge is on par with Dan Barreiro.

And I agree with Ak, there does seem to be an agenda at play, here.

Agreed, Ak ak.  I remember in years past when Gardy seemed to have certain guys he'd always call out, and certain guys who he'd never say a discouraging word about, and Dan would flip out every time.  Well, Dan does the same thing, only in reverse.  He feels like he's somehow personally responsible for holding Mauers feet to the fire for every slip up, be it real or imagined.  

Also, isn't it funny how Dan was trashing 830 for being harder on the Twins now that they've lost the contract, and Dan is suddenly all buddy buddy with Torii now that he's a regular guest on the show?

Well said AK - Mauer isn't perfect and he does deserves criticism when it is due.  No logical person can believe he is above criticism.  Mauer would have been savaged no matter if he grounded out or walked or whatever.  But ripping him "just because" is kinda sad really - but the host of this blog has to get paid for something.  

I also find the "don't rip on the piranahas because they are too easy a target" angle a little troubling as well.  They need to start putting up more consistent numbers.  Who else on this squad is driving in runs besides Torii, Morneau, & Cuddy?

I believe Dan's point was to stop blaming the career late inning defensive replacement for only hitting .200 and start blaming the guys who should be producing. Punto, Tyner, Ford are all really bad baseball players. But, that shouldnt surprise anyone. Ford had a good year maybe three years ago. Punto had his career year last year. Building a team that plays anyone of these losers daily is only going to fail. Putting any of these clowns in a DH role is silly. Obviously Terry Ryan is to blame for that. However, not every player on the team sucks like Punto. Mauer is one that is expected to perform. So far he hasnt. And please do argue that hitting .300 is producing. People in Minnesota have a desire to protect Baby Jesus. Somehow, he can do no wrong. Dan knows it and doesnt agree with it.

With the twins losing again today, you can officially put a fork in the season. I seriously hope that talkabout adding a hitter this year will stop. It is too late people. Unless that hitter is A-Rod, the discount bat people are talking about just wont cut it. Ty Wiggington will only help the twins fishes 10 games over .500 instead of 5 games over .500
the twins should now become SELLERS. Now we move Torii Hunter.

Well I think Dan showed his true colors today. When he said he had a way to make some deals that would allow the Twins to keep both Hunter and Santana ... how did I know that one of those ideas would be trading Mauer???
Then he says, and I'm paraphrasing "Hey I like Mauer, I think he does a great job, there are many things that he does good and brings to the table".... eventhough I rip him on a daily basis for every little mistake he makes...

Forget the fact that he'll make the club probably 30 - 40 million in ticket sales, merchandising, ect. over the next 3 years because people love him in this town.
How many Mauer jerseys do you see at a game with an average crowd?? Who gets the revenue off those jersey sales?? So lets trade the guy that actually makes this team money...

Remember it was your friends at the Star Tribune, Pioneer Press, Duckies and Bunnies that hyped Mauer up the be the greatest thing since sliced bread... Not the Twins and Mauer... I don't recall hearing Mauer tell us how great he was going to be... so when you rip Mauer for not living up to expectations remember it was your buddies at the fish wrap factory, west side of the river, who put Mauer and Mornaeu in a full page spread as the M & M boys...

Now having said all that.. Mauer signed the big money deal now... now he has to earn it. Now the Twins have to use him the right way. Its becoming obvious he isn't going to be a big run producer and/or homerun hitter so put him 1st or 2nd in the line up.. let him hit his seeing eyed singles, take his walks and rely on the Canadian and Cuddy to drive him in…

RUBE HATING GUY said: "Putting any of these clowns in a DH role is silly. "
How good are the White Sox doing with Thome as their DH??
How good are the Blue Jays doing with their DH??
How good are the Rangers doing with thier DH??
How good are the Yankees doing with their DH, let alone their whole line up??
How good are the Mariners doing after they signed Beltre to big money, the year after he led the NL in HR's?

If Mauer had regular appearances on the show and a personality like Hunter. Barriero would be singing his praises. Seems to be how he picks who jhe likes and doesn't like. Sad.

I loved Dan's idea today.  Simple for me, do I want to see Santana pitch in the new stadium or watch Mauer play left field in the new stadium?

While Mauer is popular today, winning ball games will sell more tickets in the long run.  Hunter has a great Kirby like personality and Santana is one of those rare Hall of Fame potential pitchers.

The Twins need to keep stars and fill in with solid roll players.  They also need guys with some pop in their bats.

I don't dislike Mauer at all.  But it's about the Ws and the Twins without Hunter and Santana will be far worse than the Twins without Mauer and Nathan.

They will make far less money too.  Mauer outsells all the players you mentioned. What do we do for a catcher then? Redmond should not be a full time catcher.

If that were to happen they better get stars in return to make up for it. It wont happen though and it is a ridiculous idea imo.  Teams also need a player like Mauer too.  Good catchers are hard to come by you don't trade them away.  I do think though that Nathan is one of our best trade assets with Neshek waiting in the wings.

AK am I to assume from what you are writing that you are happy with the current state of the Team DH? You would NOT take Thome instead of Lew Ford at DH? You dont think Sosa from Texas would help this club at all? I suppose Frank Thomas over Jason Tyner wouldnt make any sense to you? I am missing your argument here. Are you trying to be funny?

I think you people defending Mauer are losing it. Why cant Dan rip on this guy? What is so great about a catcher that can bunt? Dan has the same comments towards KG. Is it ok to rip KG for being soft but not Mauer? KG has actually accomplished more in his career yet Dan still rips him. Mauer has only proven he can hit a bouncer up the middle regularily.

I think you people defending Mauer are losing it. Why cant Dan rip on this guy? What is so great about a catcher that can bunt? Dan has the same comments towards KG. Is it ok to rip KG for being soft but not Mauer? KG has actually accomplished more in his career yet Dan still rips him. Mauer has only proven he can hit a bouncer up the middle regularily.

How about a top notch defensive catcher and a high avg. hitter? Enough said.

He also has won the first batting title at catcher at 23. Of course KG has accomplished more he is older and has been in the NBA over 10 years! I think you are losing it also if you think offense is the only part of the game.

Barriero rips just about everyone anyways.

Rube-
My point was that a DH will not help this team. Would I like to have Thomas, Thome, Sosa, in the line up?? Yes, except maybe Sosa, never really like him, but its not going to help. Rarely ever does the big mid-season trade, or the big off-season free agent signing propel a team to win a WS. This team doesn’t need to add a bat, they have the talent, and adding a bat only eats away at your ability to lock up Santana and Morneau long term.
When the Twins first started making play-off  runs, in the Gardy era, back in 2002 the thing that was going to put this team over the edge was the big bat. We heard Dan go on, and on, about how this team desperately needed a big bat. Then the Canadian comes along, wins an MVP, is on pace to hit 45-50 HR’s this season. That seems like a pretty big bat. Now the problem is the role players, 3rd, LF, and DH. Well the Twins had the same caliber, role players back then when all they needed was the big bat. Now its T.Ryans fault for counting on these guys… Now all we need to do is replace Tyner, Ford & Punto… And replace them with who?? When their replacements don’t perform to your expectations then what?? Get new role players?? Sign another big bat, eat up the salary so your role players are even worse then they are now?? This team has the talent… they just need to use it…
When Morneau first came up, he went on a tear for the second half of the season. Had a great start to his career. Fans were excited for the next year. Then the next season, after all the hype and pressure Morneau and a so-so season and then all the sudden he wasn’t the answer, he was all hype and no substance, ect… The following year he goes on to win the MVP…
Punto plays his first full season, everyday, last year and exceeds expectations. Then they start hyping the Pirranahs, putting the pressure on, and he’s had a feeble season so far. And what a shock you, Bump, and just about everyone wants Punto outta here, T.Ryan is a moron for relying on this guy… yet he wasn’t a moron for sticking w/ Morneauzy when things were bad, sticking with Cuddy when things were bad… Now maybe Punto works out, maybe he doesn’t but its too soon to pull the plug on him, especially after what he showed you he can do last year…
No one is saying Bump can’t rip Mauer. We’re just saying rip him for a valid reason, not for the sake of ripping him. And nit picking at every little mistake he makes is ripping for the sake of ripping because then your not looking at him objectively…

Bump-
If I recall you were not in favor of the first K.G trade w/ Boston. Then a few weeks later you came out and said, “Maybe it wasn’t such a bad deal”
Now you want to trade Mauer & Nathan… maybe you should wait a few weeks… maybe in a few weeks you won’t like that idea anymore…
Take some of your own advice, you know how you always tell people to “get their own show” if they don’t like yours…
Well if you don’t like what the Twins do then…. “Get your own team”

Also it looks like your whinning and complaining finally paid off… 94 East, in Maple Grove just after the 94-494 interchange is Dans big bald head about 20 ft tall on a BILLBOARD!!!

RHG, I think you're losing it.  I already said once that Mauer is in no way above criticism, but the plain and simple truth is that Dan hates him because A) He's local, and B) He was wrong when he wanted to pick flameout Prior instead of him.  It's really not that difficult to see that if you pay attention to his schtick.  

Again, nobody is saying that he's Willie Mays, but he's a very good player that's still only 24 years old.  

It is very hard for people to be objective, and if you point this out to an individual they are offended.  Go take an on-line test to see if you are right-brained or left-brained, if you are either, you will have a lot of trouble being objective.  Left-brainers will go solely on emotion.  Conversly, right-brainers will want only facts and will fail to see the impact and importance of emotion.  People shouldn't be offended by that statement, it is just human nature.

This is somewhat like the A-Rod haters in NYC on a Mini-Apple scale.  The haters in both cases just have something against that person, and statistics aside they are going to focus on the negative.  They are arguing against people that have an equal propensity for only the positive.

Compare our Mauer with another Golden Child, Jeter, through his first four years looking at HR and RBI, the things Bump seems to see as lacking.
Baby Jesus – 43 AB/HR 0.144 RBI/AB
Jeter           – 49 AB/HR 0.125 RBI/AB
So numbers alone, Baby Jesus is ahead and at least comparable.  But to leave out winning 2 Championships and not getting hurt is ridiculous.  It's just hard to do with intangibles.

I will say there is one intangible that Mauer clearly falls short on, toughness.  When Redmond played the day after getting stitches in the head from a bat because poor Joe had to play the double-header the day before and Redmond was making excuses for him, Joe lost any chance of being billed a tough guy.  But remember, he did go to a private school.

Rube-
The Mauer – KG comparison is no good for me. I can’t answer that question. I don’t know anything about basketball, I don’t follow basketball. The only thing I know about basketball is what I hear from noon – 2 & 4 – 7. So when Bump rips KG I have no clue if it has validity.
Yours and Dan’s assessment of the Twins is way off base. In most cases its knee jerk reactions.
If you want to follow a team that makes knee jerk reactions may I suggest you MLB Extra Innings and follow the Yankees, Stieny is the king of knee jerk reactions… I.E. Roger Clemens at 28 million for ¾ of a year.

Jeter's a leadoff guy, you can't compare RBI numbers between him and a guy who hits in the 3-slot.

It's very tough to sort through Bump's savagery and figure out exactly who the target of his ranting is.  Does he play to anti-Mauer contingent by ripping Mauer unnecessarily?  Sure.  And if he really suggested they trade Mauer to try and fix this team, then he either doesn't understand the business side of baseball, or has just completely lost his mind.

But to come to Bump's semi-defense, I think most of his criticism of guys like Mauer and Punto is more targeted at expectations of what these guys were capabable of, rather than those guys themselves.  This is a blurred distinction that Bump often fails to clearly articulate, but I don't hear anybody honestly saying "I don't want Nick Punto to be a Twin."  Even the most avid Mauer haters would probably far prefer to have Mauer as a Twin than Redmond or A.J., for example.  What they're attacking is the notion that these guys are anything more than they really are...Punto is a utility player and a great defensive player, but every team has guys like that on the bench.  The Tigers have a guy, Brandon Inge, who starts at 3rd base, bats 9th, and might even be better than Punto on defense.  Yet, Inge has more HR's this year than our #1, #2, #7, #8, and #9 hitters COMBINED.  There's something wrong there.  Likewise, Mauer's a great asset to this team as a player and a marketing tool.  But he has the mentality of a table-setter, NOT a clutch #3 hitter.

Just to add to Storm-
The other thing you need to look at, is this team as whole, not just what happened against Detroit. Through out this season the main problem has been the pitching. When the team is constantly behind, especially behind in the 1st and 2nd inning then that makes every at bat more critical. That puts more pressure on the hitters to get that big hit thats going to mount a comeback. You can't expect this team to win the WS, let alone make the playoffs when they are constantly playing from behind, and then say its the fault of the batters not producing. Teams that are built to win in the play offs have solid #1 #2 #3 starters. The Twins rotation is young and inexperienced. You can't expect Mauer, Punto, Bartlett to come through everytime they have a critical at bat when 60% of their at bats are critical because they are always behind.

When a game ends 1-0 several things are generally true:  
1) Starting pitching was lights out both ways
2) Bad execution late in the game - for example -- missed bunt, missed sign, fielding error, not moving a runner over, base running mistake, watching 3rd strike,
3) Bullpen was lights out

Watching on Tuesday the Twins made at least 3 of those mistakes late in the game.

To suggest that one player, one at bat, one ground ball, one anything decides a game let alone a season is assanine.  It also suggests that you have never played baseball.  
 

I'm of the opinion that the starting pitching was a significant setback first half of the season, so I somewhat agree with you AK
Our inconsistencies at the plate has been (and still is) very prevelent in accounting to our mediocre season thus far.  I would still have a hard time writing off this year, a couple more sweeps though.... and the fat lady should be clearing her crooning.

Every reaction is knee-jerk coming from Bump, that's his deal.  Anything to get a rise.  I also find the apologies for Bump to be quite nauseating.  Why isn't Barreiro held accountable to the high standards he preaches?  As a "hypocrisy-buster" I find his schtick kind of ironic...

P.S.  Common's "Barreiro/anger management bit" was hilarious today!!!!!

Jeter is not a lead-off hitter, he bats 2nd.  So you are wrong there.  I also said HR and RBI; you only bothered to criticize my choice of RBI because that served your purpose.  You didn't say anything about the HR.  There is no perfect comparison where all else is equal.  Jeter is a player at a skill position that seems to be well regarded as a clutch player. I may be wrong about that and I don't care who it is.  The point is people have an axe to grind so the pick the stats to further their point.  You proved my point.  

But really you are very wrong saying you can't compare Mauer and Jeter.  First you can compare anything, apples, oranges, helicopters.  To say they are different is comparing.  But I digress; the 3rd year of Mauer (2006) and Jeter (1998) are remarkably similar as far as opportunity to produce.
Jeter Mauer
681 PA batting 2nd , . 324 602 PA batting 3rd , . 347
19 HR, 83 RBI, .481 Slg 13 HR, 84 RBI, .507 Slg  

Your point is that Mauer had the RBI advantage hitting third (compared to lead off is what you said incorrectly) but RISP comparisons will correct this and add O'Neill #3 hitter of that team. 672/.317/24/116/.510

Jeter Mauer O'Neill
177 PA with RISP 173 PA with RISP 194 PA with RISP
315 PA with Men On 301 PA with Men On 340 PA with Men On
114 PA leading off inning 119 PA leading off inning 104 PA leading off inning

Looking at where runners were
Jeter Mauer O'Neill
1st 95 85 92
2nd 45 54 45
3rd 25 25 27
1st & 2nd 45 40 42
1st & 3rd 13 11 29
2nd & 3rd 14 14 14
Juiced 14 13 18
Mauer-Jeter Very close, Mauer had 3 more on second (2,1-2,2-3,1-2-3) Jeter had 3 more on third (3,1-3,2-3,1-2-3).  Very similar and the 84 RBI show they did about the same with their opportunity.

Mauer-O'Neill close, Mauer had 2 more on second (2,1-2,2-3,1-2-3) but O'Neill had 25 more on 3rd. 3,1-3,2-3,1-2-3).  So O'Neill had better opportunity although not enough to completely Justify the 30 RBI difference.

But what about clutch?
2-out RISP
Jeter Mauer O'Neill
75 PA .254, 16 RBI, .388 sg 64 PA .408, 29 RBI .653 sg 66 PA .233, 15 RBI .317 sg

9th Inning
47 PA .302, 5 RBI, .402 sg 44 PA .425, 6 RBI .675 sg 39 PA .278, 9 RBI .472 sg

He may be a better #2 like Jeter but not that bad compared to O'Neill and certainly not the absolute travesty that these people seem to think.

This year is worse for him and LIKE I SAID, HE'S NOT TOUGH, but certainly the amount of extra slack he gets from Bump is equal to the amount of leniency a Mauer can do no wrong camper allows.

Sorry the format didn't work, it looked good when I typed it

How come Bump never responds to any of these comments, even when people address him directly?

Does he even read these?  Or just do his post and collect his check?  What a chump..

Hunter's value is being dramatically overrated.  He had a nice season last year and he's having an outstanding season this year, that is true.  That said,  in previous seasons he has been embarrassing at the batter's box more often than not.  A $10-$15 million a year guy who bats sixth because he can't handle the pressure of batting third?  Give me a break.  The Twins aren't the Yankees or the Red Sox.  To have a guy making that kind of money batting sixth is completely absurd.  You can't allocate that kind of money to a guy who lacks confidence.

Historically, Hunter was the king of swinging at garbage and choking like a dog with runners in scoring position.    He's easily daunted by fierce competition.  He's having one great season this year but there's no reason to believe he's figured it out and won't eventually revert to his incompetent former self.  He still stinks against the Yankees, and Clemens continues to own him even though Rog is a shell of his former self.  For most of his career, Torri Hunter has been a great fielder who has been unreliable at the plate.  And you're going to give him that much money?  Please.

Santana is the one you break the bank on.  If he is let go I would be outraged.  Lose Hunter, keep Santana.  If it's one or the other it's not even close in my estimation.  Santana has been consistent his whole career and he's not intimidated by anyone.  He's probably a future hall-of-famer.  Hunter is lucky to get into the All-Star game once every 5 years.

It's not even close.

Hunter is a nice guy and the face of the franchise, I'm happy for him.  Trade him while you can.
I would try to keep him for the simple fact that there is no one to replace him.

Clarification:  "I would try to keep him for the simple fact that there is no one to replace him."

The statement inadvertently appears contradictory due to careless paragraph organization on my part; I am referring to Santana here, not Hunter.

jakeofclubs, nice posts.  The stats breakdowns are an interesting read.

I'm in no mood to support Bump tonight.  I left the office early Friday to see him at Maynards.  For my trouble I was out $5 for a beer and saw them pack up and run at 4:05.

If last week's performance against the Tigers does not convince you that the Twins are just not a playoff team, I don't know what will convince you. These two games illustrated what this team is all about. A team that really has no hitting and several raw pitchers.

I look for trends during a course of the season. There are too many negative trends on this team. Outside of Morneau and Hunter, who is reliable out there. Kubel and Bartlett are going through their ups and downs. You see good things from both of them and sometimes you get frustrated at them. At this point, they should just learn at their job without any pressure of getting it done and winning. It is going to take time for those two to perform.

Another trend is that our young pitching is just not getting it done. Lavelle E. Neal hit the nail on the head in the pape several weeks ago about how inexperience on the starting rotation is hurting the team. Kevin Slowey, Matt Garza, and Scott Baker have potential, but it is not going to be smooth sailing for those three pitchers. They are going to struggle to get past the third inning and they are going to be affected at first sign of adversity. It's part of life as a young pitcher. It would be nice if those guys end up like Verlander or Liriano or Bonderman, but it just does not work that way quickly. For some guys, it takes patience. Right now, fans like myself and the team need to let those three just pitch and grow at their jobs without the pressure of winning.

Just pointing out those trends are good enough to say that they are not a playoff team. The homer hanky zealots will say look at last year. Guess what? There is no Liriano to save the day. Neither of the three young pitchers have shown that they are going to step in and be dominating. If anything, the hype that the Twins have given to them is very damaging to their psyche. I have no idea why this team would even hype anyone who did well in the minors. It means nothing. Twins talking up Garza and Slowey for their work in the minors is like the Wolves pimping up Ebi and McCants for doing well at garbage time. Those young pitchers are forced to pitch with unrealistic expectations to the point that these guys are scared to make mistakes. What this franchise did to them last year on Twins telecast and in the papers was damaging IMO.

Also our hitting is just not that good enough. No way Punto and the piranhas are going to duplicate last year.

I thought this team would be a playoff team because I figure the kiddies would flourish in the rotation and that guys like Punto, Kubel, and Bartlett would have great years. It hasn't happened and odds are it will not so forget comeback.

Twins fans should just sit back, relax, and strap it down and watch the team go through the growing pains of losing. This rest of the season should be rebuilding year. That means Slowey (he should be promoted not demoted), Baker, Perkins (he should replace Silva the minute he gets healthy), and Garza (he replaces Boof Bonser) should be on the rotation no matter how bad they are. Let them get a chance to do well without any pressure out there. Also, it means time to trade Torii, Joe Nathan, and even Johan Santana for young hitters who are ready to contribute to this team right now.

The next few years should be about building a foundation for a championship team in 2010, when the new stadium opens.

As for Mauer, I don't think he is anything special so trade this guy. Torii and Johan are more valuable than this guy. Mike Redmond can do a good job for the next five years. He is a better catcher than Mauer. If Redmond caught the two games in the Detroit series, they win.

Ak - Ak....I am a Joe Mauer fan..Barreiro is way off base..like usual..w/ his ripping of him.  Now for the at bat and My note....His at bat in the 6th..not 9th...w/ 2 guys on..was PATHETIC.  It would have been nice if he would have SWUNG at strike 3 or SWUNG at strike 2 or strike 1.  For the #3 hitter in your lineup to take 6 pitiches in a huge game w/ guys on base was and still is pathetic. To actually be in attendance and watch him stare at 6 pitiches was actually hard to believe.
Biggest at bat of the yr.  1st game of the series vs the Tigers..our only chance of the game...he stares at 6 and we go on and get swept.
Time for football.

Hollywood-
I understand where you are coming from. I watched that game and your right both those at bats were pathetic. He frusterates the crap out of me sometimes. When its the first pitch of the a bat or a 3-0 count and he just takes a pitch thats right down broadway, I've never been a fan of taking strike 1. Where I take issue with your comments is when you it was the most imortant at bat of the season. The fact of the matter is just about everyone in the lione up had a chance to get a game winning hit in that Detroit series and nobody came through. So you can't put all the blame on Mauer, can he take more blame than others, yes. Even if he does swing, and hits one of his classic GB to 2nd the end result is still the same, but you wouldn't be calling it the most important at bat of the season. It stands out to you because of the pathetic effort put forth. At the end of the day he got 2 game winning hits in the 10 game homestand which is more than you can say for anybody else in the line up... Their most critical games haven't come yet, we still have to face the Tribe 13 times...

Where do people get off criticizing someone for taking strike one?  His approach is his approach, it worked pretty well.  There is a lot of frustration regarding this team and a good portion is put on Mauers shoulders.  
Last year, a year criticized by Bump his numbers were good
Mauer had 64 PA .408, 29 RBI .653 sg with 2 outs & RISP.  
This year they are a little worse
25 PA .360, 11 RBI .600 sg with 2 outs & RISP

But he numbers are the best on the team, and 12th in the AL.  He was 5th in the AL.  While all the Mauer "lovers" think he is the second coming, the Mauer haters will only appreciate him if he is.  For the love of Pete, could somebody please be realistic here?  Mauer is very good.  He is not perfect and it will be disappointing if he doesn't develop some power or is injury prone for his career.  But he won the batting title!  That is an accomplishment and an extremely rare thing for a catcher to do.  That is special MSF.

And then you have people like storm saying things like Jeter is a leadoff hitter.  That is verifiable and wrong.  Nobody calls him on that.  Hollywood is talking about an at bat in the 6th inning of a game and blaming the entire series and in effect the season on that.  You cannot be serious.  Nobody said anything about the big winning hit the 2 nights before.  You are all cherry picking the stats to suit your argument like politicians.

Jake...I'll stand by my comment.  His big winning hit 2 nights before came against the A's.  That led to the biggest series of the yr ( Do you doubt that too I suppose ) against the Tigers.   I'm not one cherry picking the stats.  The Twins will NOT contend for the lead the rest of the yr.  That all has to do w/ what they did in the biggest series of the yr.  In the first game of that series...Joe Mauer had a very big at bat.  To have a leader fail...along w/ failing while looking at 6 straight pitches ...not good.  Biggest at bat of the yr....unless you like playing for the wild card.

P.S.  The at bats against Calif don't matter...the chance at winning the title is officially over.

Yes, it is a critical series, yes it was a big at bat.  Yes if the would have won they could have built momentum.  But if all the team is capable of doing after a 1-0 loss is getting swept then it wasn't that one game that condemned the season.  So, if you blame the whole season on him for that at bat you are proving my point.  The expectation on the single person is unrealistic.  And I stand by my comment, you cherry pick.  

You even are a preemptive cherry picker by declaring that the season is over and the other game winning hits don't matter.  Last year on Sept 5 the Twins opened a series at home against Detroit 4 games out of first place.  They lost to go down 5.  There was less season to go they had one great pitcher, one hobbled together pitcher and Boof.  Yet somehow they didn't turn into the pumpkin they did this year.  Somehow when they pissesd away the first game it didn't ruin them.  So to say the one did this year really does not hold water.  It may be the turning point and you can look at t as the diffinitive line but it did not cause it.

Jake-
Overall you are right. That at bat, that series was not the most critical. However your criticism of Hollywood being a "cherrypicker" is off base. Not one time in this thread did Hollywood throw any stats out there. So if you are going to savage Storm for calling a Jeter a lead-off hitter then you need to practice what you preach and get your facts straight.
Hollywood said:
"....unless you like playing for the wild card."
06 - Tigers, Wild Card team, lost in WS
05 - Astros, Wild Card team, lost in WS
04 - Red Sox, Wild Card team, Won WS
03 - Marlins, Wild Card team, Won in WS
02 - Angels. Wild Card team, Won WS; Giants, Wild Card team, lost in WS
00 - Mets,  Wild Card team, lost in WS
97 - Marlins, Wild Card team, Won WS

In the 12 years that the Wild Card has existed of the 24 Wild Card teams, 8 have made it to the WS, and 4 of those 8 have won the WS.
Twins have won the AL Central Division 4 times since the existance of the Wild Card, and haven't made it to the WS, and only made out of the first round once.

On the contrary, he used the single at bat as his data and threw everything else out.  How is that not picking the data to suit your argument?  I also did not specifically call out Hollywood until he threw out the A'***.   He even adds a completely unsubstantiated shot at me, ridiculing my observations.  What is analyzed by you?  That he technically may not have used data, so on this technicality, he didn't actually throw any data out ergo I am wrong.

You call my rant about Jeter savaging but really that is the only way you can make a point here.  And why should I not, he completely throws out my comparison based on one fact that isn't true.  It is the common debate technique, invalidating the data supported argument of your adversary.  It is so common that when it's done people don't even notice and I like the jerk because I called him on it.  My point was and still is, that neither of the sides arguing are objective.  This is thrown out because Jeter is a lead off hitter.  I brought this up and added my data, no response.  I point out more adamantly that the guy was wrong and now I am savaging.  

It would be like if I said to your list of wild card winners, no Ak you are wrong, Detroit wasn't a wild card in 2006.  Ignored the rebuttal and then told you to get bent if you brought it up again.  It is amazing to me that people let that slide at all.  How can you defend Storm, just because he is a board buddy?

I am not defending Mauer; I am just saying the beating this guy receives here is harsh, as harsh as Sid's and Breamer's (sp) are syrupy.  And obviously since you didn't bother to even address that, you must have no ground to stand on.  All the debate techniques are from the list of top ten things to do when you are losing an argument.  I am waiting for someone to compare me to Hitler now.

Remember a few yrs ago when the A's were in town and some no-name hit a late HR to beat us?  That was universally considered the turning point of the yr and also a few yrs after that.
Detroit at home was and will be considered the series of the yr.  I guarantee Gardy will say that after this yr. I love Joe Mauer and never criticize him.  But, that at bat was a collasel (incorrect spelling I'm sure) failure.  He needs to learn sometimes we need him attacking and not sitting back looking at 6 pitches.

I agree when we will be looking back, that series and game can be looked at as the point that the season was deemed lost.  As I said:

"Yes, it is a critical series, yes it was a big at bat.  Yes if the would have won they could have built momentum.....It may be the turning point and you can look at as the definitive line"

But it is not the cause of the lost season.  At the end of the night, if this year's team was anything special they would have rallied around their ace, the best and most reliable asset they have, and won the next night.  If they can't go sweep Toronto to rebound then this year's team is not the special team.  

If you think that a hit at that point in the game (and in fact all you are asking for is a swing but I will assume it was a hit) changes this into a special team I will say I respectfully disagree with that opinion.  My evidence is what happened last year in very similar circumstance.  That was a special team and they rebounded.  This is not a special team and they did not, even with a better pitcher going.  I see your point, I am not convinced and those are my reasons.

I will add -
Dan has to have some axe to grind with Mauer.  Two players made very costly blunders but he is not going to blame them, they are too easy to blame.  How is that a criterion for escaping responsibility?

Dan shouldn't even be allowed to say Mauer's name.  He's a jacka** and thinks he's funny getting his audience riled.
Going into this season w/ that hitting line-up is the blame for the season...Not Mauer's at bat.  When you know you have no chance until 2-3 innings later when he's back up again...that's your blame for the season.  Softball teams have better lineups.

I always remind myself that Barreiro is an Indiana man with no allegiances to MN fans just like common with Michigan. They must have a hoot trying to rile us MN fans up.

jakeofclubs said:
“On the contrary, he used the single at bat as his data and threw everything else out.  How is that not picking the data to suit your argument?  I also did not specifically call out Hollywood until he threw out the A'***.   He even adds a completely unsubstantiated shot at me, ridiculing my observations.  What is analyzed by you?  That he technically may not have used data, so on this technicality, he didn't actually throw any data out ergo I am wrong.”

You criticized him for throwing “stats” out there that only support his point. A) Stats is multiple statistics, an at bat is one statistic.  B) His point was centered on that at bat so he had to mention it. C) He never put forth any statistics to back up his point that that at bat was the most critical of the season, which is what you accused him of doing. Ergo you are wrong. Having said that, his tactic was wrong. He was trying to substantiate his point of view with opinion rather than fact/stats. Further more when you rebutted his statement that that at bat was the most critical at bat of the season you used and example from last year to substantiate your point of view, however you failed to bring up any at bats or games from 2005 (the most recent year in which the Twins did not make the playoffs) so one could view that as not being objective, “cherry picking” stats that suit your argument, ergo one could view you as a hypocrite.

jakeofclubs said:
“You call my rant about Jeter savaging but really that is the only way you can make a point here.  And why should I not, he completely throws out my comparison based on one fact that isn't true.  It is the common debate technique, invalidating the data supported argument of your adversary.  It is so common that when it's done people don't even notice and I like the jerk because I called him on it.  My point was and still is, that neither of the sides arguing are objective.  This is thrown out because Jeter is a lead off hitter.  I brought this up and added my data, no response.  I point out more adamantly that the guy was wrong and now I am savaging. “

Storm was wrong and you pointed that out, and that did discredit his rebuttal. In fact it went to the very foundation of his rebuttal. This is what you should have done. Later on in this thread though you said,  “And then you have people like storm saying things like Jeter is a leadoff hitter. That is verifiable and wrong.” That’s the savagery I was referring to. It did nothing to prove any point in what you were talking about, it was salt on the wound. Nobody else called him out on it because nobody else was disputing the facts/stats that you put out there. He thought he was, but you called him on it, as you should have. To be honest with you I didn’t catch it right away, as Jeter does not, and never has, played on my favorite team therefore I wasn’t really sure if has always been a #2 hitter.

jakeofclubs said:
“It would be like if I said to your list of wild card winners, no Ak you are wrong, Detroit wasn't a wild card in 2006.  Ignored the rebuttal and then told you to get bent if you brought it up again.  It is amazing to me that people let that slide at all.  How can you defend Storm, just because he is a board buddy?”

Your analogy about Wild Card winners is accurate. I wasn’t defending him, I was pointing out your own hypocrisy. He is not my “board buddy”. I have no clue who he is, or if he is even a he. His comments are usually well thought out & insightful weather you agree with his point of view or not, which there have been times when I have not agreed with him. Was he way off base in this case? Yes. You had already pointed out the fact that he was wrong about that, and as you can see he had retracted from the debate after you pointed out his mistake. There was no need to bring his statement back into the debate once he retreated.

jakeofclubs said:
“I am not defending Mauer; I am just saying the beating this guy receives here is harsh, as harsh as Sid's and Breamer's (sp) are syrupy.  And obviously since you didn't bother to even address that, you must have no ground to stand on.  All the debate techniques are from the list of top ten things to do when you are losing an argument.  I am waiting for someone to compare me to Hitler now.”

I have no idea if this comment was directed at me or not. If it was, I did not address that because I agree with you. I do think that Mauer is unfairly scrutinized. I wouldn’t compare you to Hitler unless you were an evil Socialist Dictator, or a Democrat.

Jake-
You say that we only point out stats that support our point of view. How else are we supposed to prove our point? It is your job as the one debating us to point out where our facts are wrong or misleading, much like you did to Storm.
Think of it as a trial, and I am a defense attorney. When I make my case to the jury I am only going to bring to light the facts that validate that my client is innocent, on the other side you as the Prosecutor are only going to bring to light the facts that prove my client is guilty. It is your job as the Prosecutor to poke holes in my facts, discredit my facts & witnesses. Just like it is my job as a defense attorney to poke holes in your facts & discredit your facts and witnesses. That is the whole nature of a debate.
If I bring out the facts that show my client is innocent, then I begin to tell the jury all the loop holes in my defense then whats the purpose of the debate?

…And to further my point you chose to compare Mauer to Jeter. Someone you deemed a clutch hitter(agreed, as I’m sure most would agree with that) and revered in NY the way Mauer is revered here. However David Ortiz is often referred to as the most clutch hitter in baseball, by baseball wonks nation wide, and revered in Boston just as much as Mauer is here.
You didn’t compare Mauer to Ortiz though. So one could say you are cherry picking stats to suit your purpose.
Now I suppose you could come out and say that I can’t compare Mauer to Ortiz because you can’t compare a catcher with a DH, but then you would only be discrediting my facts by deeming them invalid. “It is the common debate technique, invalidating the data supported argument of your adversary.”  You would also be contradicting yourself when you said , “First you can compare anything, apples, oranges, helicopters.”
Now having said that, I have no idea how Mauer and Otriz stack up. That’s not what I’m trying to do. What I’m saying that you said  “The point is people have an axe to grind so the pick the stats to further their point.”, and, “You are all cherry picking the stats to suit your argument like politicians.” Yet one could conceivably say you’re doing the samething.

Now that I think about it you say, “You are all cherry picking the stats to suit your argument like politicians.” That is your way of invalidating “our” data. When you say that, you are giving the misconception that since “we” chose not to include all the data that is relative to our point that the data that we did provide is invalid. You are discrediting our argument because we did not supply the data that you were looking for, that we did not do your job and discredit our own argument. And that my friend, as you said is, “…the common debate technique, invalidating the data supported argument of your adversary.”

Now let me be very clear. I am not disputing your initial point of view about Mauer. I am disputing the assertions you have made about the rest of  “us”, and how “we” defend “our” point of view. I am only pointing out that you do the same things that you accuse “us” of doing.

Those are very good points AK.  I accept your rebuke.  I did go on about the Jeter thing.  In my defense of this point, I did that as an attention grabber because I did want to further discuss this point about the extremes in judging Joe and to bring Storm back into the debate to defend himself.  A good portion of my disagreement is with Dan himself and how he singled out that at bat in the game.  I took the statement about the end of the season with one about the single at bat in the blog as part of the same thought, not entirely unreasonable but I can see your point as well.  I was looking for clarification.  One big error I made was missing your reply to Hollywood’s and I do not know how I missed that until now.  I agree with your point there and your explanation is better than mine.

As for the culling of data, it seemed to me Hollywood was extrapolating the single datum point of that at bat as representative of Mauer's last two years.  My comparison is to the actual data to show that is wrong.  So that’s how I see his as cherry picking and claim mine is not.  

There is an incredible amount of data available for baseball.  All data presented will be culled, what is necessary to make it objective is to present justification for selection.  I tried but was perhaps weak on this point.  If you are interested, I’ll try. In regard to leaving out Mauer's 2005, the original comparison with Jeter was made over the first four years of each career so I did include 2005.  You were exactly correct in why I chose Jeter. When I specifically made the 2006 comparison, the purpose was twofold.  First to show that the #2 v #3 spots that they hit in had similar opportunities, so very important for RBI.  Second, because Dan was down on him last year.  I did not take Ortiz because he was not considered clutch in his 3rd year and I was comparing Joe’s third year.  But I accept that as a valid point.
2007 numbers RISP
Mauer  88 PA, 40 RBI, .455 RBI/PA
Ortiz  115 PA, 42 RBI, .365 RBI/PA
RISP w/2 out
Mauer  31 PA 11 RBI, .355 RBI/PA
Ortiz    47 PA 16 RBI, .340 RBI/PA
2006 numbers RISP
Mauer  173 PA, 69 RBI, .399 RBI/PA
Ortiz  203 PA, 79 RBI, .389 RBI/PA
RISP w/2 out
Mauer  64 PA 29 RBI, .453 RBI/PA
Ortiz    85 PA 31 RBI, .365 RBI/PA

In 2004 and 2005 Ortiz was .433-.466 in all those categories so he wins there.  Plus he hit those huge playoff winners.  I would not call Joe more clutch than Ortiz but Mauer’s numbers aren’t terrible and compare in the last two years.  This does not include the score of the game or inning.  The one page I was using only has “Late and Close” for 2007 in which Mauer’s BA is .316 11 RBI / 43PA and Ortiz is .238 1 RBI / 44 PA.  However, I looked on ESPN and in 2005 Ortiz was .346/ 33 RBI/92PA that is AMAZING.  Ortiz wins.  RBI is harder to compare because I couldn’t break out the runners but Ortiz was ahead last year on just totals and was 1st in AL in 2005, 2nd in 2006.  Again I am not arguing Mauer is the best but that the amount of criticism is overdone.  I also see you agree with that.

As for Jeter leading off, he has filled in at #1 and in 2005 that was his primary spot, I should have relented on that one, but I did have the aforementioned reasons for that.  The Hitler thing was part of the 10 things to do if you are losing an argument, a flippant remark.

I didn't see the 916 post and I am in error lumping people together.  The other think that you commented on several times was my statement “…the common debate technique, invalidating the data supported argument of your adversary.”  This should have been “…the common debate technique, invalidating the data supported argument of your adversary with untruths.”  I thought this was clear because of the statement previous to it.  I see it was not clear, that was poor proof reading.  You are abosolutely correct, you should invalidate the arguement with facts.  That was poorly written and sounds extremely stupid.

Anyway when I was looking at the stats from this year and last, one thing that jumped out at me was last year Cuddyer and Morneau were in the top 15 close and late RBI and this year the top guy is Mauer #25.  Not blaming those guys as the table has to be set but that is a huge difference.  And Morneau is tied for the lead in C&L HR (5).  

Team C&L BA 2007 .246 , 2006 .289,
opponents .254/.223
Runs/C&L game 2007 1.17 2006 1.46

Jake-
Its funny because I agree with just about everything you say in regards to Mauer. If you read my earlier posts, before we got into this whole debate, you’ll see that. So I wasn’t challenging your actual argument that that at bat was as critical as portrayed by the host of this blog, and others who agreed with him, namely Hollywood. Its generally not in my nature to defend people who come out and make such ridiculous and unsubstantiated comments like he did. I was just trying to point out that there are some of us on this blog that do make lucid, viable, and factual comments.
It appears to me that Dan has some sort of conformity phobia. It’s almost like if you defend Mauer then you are just a homer with no objectivity who is conforming to the Sid Hartman view of the Twins & Mauer. In actuality he is doing the same thing, just on the other end of the spectrum. Because he, and others on this blog, rip him they think their being objective when their not. They come their conclusion first, then find the facts to back up their point of view, then if or when they can’t find any facts to back up what their conclusion is they use their opinion, and the opinion of others. And a couple of right brainers like ourselves, we don’t want opinion, we want the facts so I understand your frustration with morons like Hollywood, Mnsportsfanatic and Dan himself.
Thanks for coming back and defending yourself, and admitting you were wrong in some areas. You could have very easily just ignored my rebuttal, like many others in the blog-o-spheer do when they have been challenged. Now we could go on and on here with this debate but I’m afraid if we do we’ll start getting into conversations like, “Well it depends on what the definition of “is” is”. It’s been a long time since I’ve been challenged the way you challenged me, weather it be face to face or in the blog-o-spheer.
In the end I think we share a similar point of view in regards to the Twins, and I think we are both fairly objective.

Ak-
Yeah I was thinking the same thing.  I was scaning at little bit at first.  I ususally try to read them fully considering how long winded I am.  It's hard to have a good debate on a message board becasue of the one and done type posts.  I always try to get back to see the responses to my posts to see where I was wrong.  Too often though, the reponse is something like Storm's was in this case (not to pick on him any more, I believe you that he isn't normally like that.)  It didn't help that I started posting so late in the topic.

I think you are right about the anti-Sid view and in reality, I can't blame them too much.  He wrote a beauty about Williamson and the Vikings in today's paper.  But being contrary just to be contrary serves no purpose as well.  To which you agree, maybe you are middle brained.  Patrick's column was an "I told you the Twins suck" which Dan has been touting as well.  The problem with that is, there are years like last year where something great happens and that is why we are still fans.  

AK - Now I'm a Moron.  I brought up a pretty interesting point...how big of an at bat Mauer had..especially when you were at the game and everyone looked at each other like "are you kidding me". You like facts not opinions?  Boy are you interesting.  

Why is it that when we lose 1-0 it was our hitters that wasted a great pitching effort instead of just running into a great pitcher?  Dan, on another entry, asks whether people be optimistic  about the Vikings if it wasn't Minnesota.  I agree with that but isn'tblaming the batters an example of the opposite, being negative just to be negative.  I just saw the Twins strand Bartlett on 3rd with 0 out and 3 straight Ks.  PATHETHIC.  Mauer and Morneau.  Awful  That is not what a winning team does, but part of it was Sabathia being great.
 

Hollywood,
The fact that were at the game does not make your point anymore or less valid. I've also seen fans at the Metrodome give Carlos Silva a standing-o for 3 runs, 6 hits in 6 inninigs... that is not a pitching performance worthy of an ovation.

Right now the Twins are 7 games out. Lets say we sweep the Royals(not saying that thats what I think is going to happen) and Detroit & Cleveland continue on their slide and lose 3 out of their next 4. That would move the Twins withing 4 games with 10 games remaining against Cleveland and 6 games remaining against Detroit.... and your going to sit there and tell us that you think that that one at bat was the most important at bat of the season?? I don't think so....

Ak - we can look back at the end of Sept and my opinion/point will be validated.

No it won’t.
Your problem is that he never swung the bat. The end result of the at bat is what determines its success. The end result of the at bat was an out. If he had grounded to second you wouldn't be saying anything. Either way the end result of the at bat is the same and the game ends in the same manner. Further more there were 4 other batters after that at bat, and even more after his at bat in the sixth, that had an opportunity to get a hit with no one on base, so all those at bats were just as critical because no at bat in that game produced a run, which further emphasizes the error made by Bartlett(I believe, I can't remember anymore), which was the most critical play in that game.

Right now is a critical time for this team, with Detroit and Cleveland on a slide, the Twins have to take advantage of the last place team in the AL Central